LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For generations, a four-year college degree was considered key to achieving middle-class success in America. That might be changing.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
During last week's Democratic National Convention, former President Barack Obama said a four-year degree is just one way of getting there. The Democratic vice presidential nominee, Tim Walz, agrees.
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TIM WALZ: People gain experience in many different ways.
FADEL: As governor of Minnesota, Walz signed an executive order to eliminate the four-year college requirement for 75% of government jobs in the state. Here's what he said when he announced the policy last fall.
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WALZ: We think this is an exciting way to kind of pivot away a new mindset of valuing work, valuing skills.
MARTÍNEZ: Michelle Griffith covers state politics and policy for the Minnesota Reformer, an independent nonprofit newsroom.
MICHELLE GRIFFITH: The government is one of Minnesota's largest employers, with over 38,000 positions. And the thought here was that you don't need a four-year degree to do many of the jobs, and Minnesota has been in a labor shortage the past couple of years, especially since COVID. And so this was also a move to try to fill some of those open positions.
MARTÍNEZ: So we're talking about 25,000 jobs - right? - in Minnesota, that all of a sudden became available to a wider pool of people.
GRIFFITH: Yes, that's correct.
MARTÍNEZ: Did people start filling up those jobs? How did that work after that?
GRIFFITH: You know, I reached out to the state's budget agency, and they said they don't have data of how many state employees were hired since then. One of Governor Walz's goals has been to hire more people of color in state jobs, which - the rate has historically been pretty low. So this was also a move to try to reach people of color and make those positions more accessible.
MARTÍNEZ: How did Republicans in the state legislature react to the order? Did they support it? Or is it one of those strictly party-line things?
GRIFFITH: I don't think this is a party-line issue. Governors across the country have also eliminated this kind of four-year degree requirement for their state jobs, both Democratic and Republican governors.
MARTÍNEZ: Michelle Griffith covers state politics and policy for the nonprofit news organization, Minnesota Reformer. Michelle, thanks.
GRIFFITH: Thank you.
FADEL: Since 2022, more than a dozen states have taken steps to lower the entry barrier for government jobs by dropping the four-year college requirement. So, we wondered what this might mean for the next generation of American workers and the value of a college degree.
MARTÍNEZ: ZipRecruiter chief economist Julia Pollak has looked into this issue.
JULIA POLLAK: It very much extends to the private sector. Many major companies have done the same thing, including IBM, Dell, Bank of America - there's a long list of household-name companies.
MARTÍNEZ: What specific industry jobs does this affect? Is it only for entry-level jobs, or what kind of specific jobs are we talking about?
POLLAK: No, this is going to affect a wide range of jobs. In business services like HR, finance, payroll - it can affect the kinds of jobs where you do require some training, but most of the training that's relevant is provided on the job. So in skilled trades, even in some health care fields. So it really extends to a very wide range of jobs. You know, many degrees sort of are there to teach you how to think, but they don't actually teach you how to do the job. And that's what many, many roles in America require.
MARTÍNEZ: What economic or social forces are driving this shift?
POLLAK: I think there are many, many different shifts here underway. One is that the college degree is becoming more prevalent. So ever more of the workforce is college educated. Graduation rates are going up, but the kinds of proficiency test scores that we look at - numeracy, literacy - many of those are actually going down. So the degree may be losing its value as sort of everyone has one, and they don't necessarily capture competence. The other issue is just that there is increasing focus on how to remove unnecessary barriers to opportunity, how to alleviate staffing shortages, which are here to stay across many, many industries, and how to build a more diverse and inclusive workforce. And these kinds of measures help serve all of those goals.
MARTÍNEZ: How much of this do you think is generational, Julia? Because I'm Gen X. My granddaughters just started high school. I have a tough time telling them that, hey, maybe you don't need a college degree. I don't know. I've just been ingrained in me as the son of immigrant parents to really strive for that college degree.
POLLAK: I mean, for me, too, right? I came to the United States from South Africa in order to go to Harvard and get a degree, and that was sort of the definition in my family's mind of setting me up for success. And, you know, my degree, I think is largely to be credited with the success that I had in my career. So I definitely don't think it's a good idea to tell a young person not to go to school. If you are kind of person who will thrive at school, who will be able to complete your college degree, by all means, go and do it. If it's not going to bankrupt your family and put you in enormous debt, by all means, go and do it.
But it's not the only path, and it's not necessarily even the best path for everyone. There are so many people who start college degrees only to drop out midway with a huge debt burden without any kind of benefit for their career searches. There are countries like Germany that make a much larger investment in the non-college educated population, and where that population is staying in the workforce, where their participation rates are rising and where they are thriving and earning more and getting better jobs.
MARTÍNEZ: You know, looking at what's going on with the presidential election, how much of what we're seeing here could be slightly political, in terms of, like, how a party identifies with a particular person and their educational level?
POLLAK: So I think both parties are very self-consciously appealing to the middle class, and most Americans define themselves as middle class. And so it definitely makes sense to embrace the kinds of policies that expand opportunity for the majority of Americans.
MARTÍNEZ: Julia Pollak is the chief economist at ZipRecruiter. Julia, thanks.
POLLAK: Thank you.
MARTÍNEZ: So, hey, Leila, this reminds me of a story that we had on the show last week with NPR education reporter Cory Turner. He was reporting on that study of middle and high school students. And it found an optimism gap - an optimism gap between students who said they planned to go to college and those who did not. Here's Cory speaking with Zach Hrynowski, a senior education researcher at Gallup.
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ZACH HRYNOWSKI: Even the kids who are like, I don't want to go to college, what are they hearing the most about? College. We're not talking to them about apprenticeships, internships, starting a business, entrepreneurial aspirations, jobs that don't require a college degree.
FADEL: So, it's not just a matter of creating opportunities for students who don't go to college. It's making sure they hear about those opportunities, too.
(SOUNDBITE OF COCHEMEA'S "SONG OF HAPPINESS") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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