STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We have a scholar of Dick Cheney on the line. Barton Gellman wrote "Angler," which is a book on the late Vice President and his use of power. Mr. Gellman, good morning.
BARTON GELLMAN: Good morning.
INSKEEP: What thoughts came to your mind when you learned of Mr. Cheney's death?
GELLMAN: Well, it's the passing of a big milestone, I think, in American history. He was an enormously consequential figure as - which is exactly the word he liked to use to describe himself. That was for good and for ill.
INSKEEP: He described himself as consequential. Did you say that?
GELLMAN: Yes, he wanted to have and believed he had achieved a consequential vice presidency, that he had done things that mattered for the nation. And he really was a patriot. He believed he was doing what he was doing for all of our good, for all of our benefit. Certainly not everyone agreed. And in my book, I am quite critical at times of the choices he made, especially of means toward ends, but he believed in what he was doing, and he spent, you know, his whole adult life working for the American government.
INSKEEP: You describe this man who was in government for so many years playing the bureaucracy like a piano, working intelligence agencies like an instrument as well. And, of course, one of the things he was instrumental in was making the case and laying the groundwork for the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. I want to play some tape here of Vice President Cheney. This is now 2008. So by many people's lights, the war has gone wrong and gone on far longer than was anticipated. And he was asked about it by ABC's Martha Raddatz. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
MARTHA RADDATZ: Two-thirds of Americans say it's not worth fighting.
DICK CHENEY: So?
RADDATZ: So? You're not - you don't care what the American people think?
CHENEY: No, I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls.
INSKEEP: What do you think about when you hear that, Barton Gellman?
GELLMAN: I thought that was a stunningly honest description of exactly how Dick Cheney feels. I mean, for one thing, he was a big believer in the sort of never apologize, never explain. He believed it was damaging to the power of a president or a presidency to admit error, and to open the door for critics to redouble their attacks. But he also genuinely believed in a - what you might call a fairly paternalistic idea about how leaders should lead, that they have to be elected. But then it's a little bit more like a surgeon that you're choosing. You don't tell the doctor where to make the cut. You choose your doctor and let him do his job.
INSKEEP: You approve the surgery, and then you leave the details to them, including some very important ones. I want to ask about his turn late in life against the direction of his party. He was very, very critical of President Trump. Jonah Goldberg, a writer we had on earlier this morning, had an interesting insight. Cheney himself was a big believer in an expansive use of presidential power, but then turned against this president, who has vastly expanded the powers of the presidency or attempted to. What do you make of that?
GELLMAN: Cheney did believe in a balance, a proper balance. He believed in the constitutional division of authorities. He had a very strong view on the essential nature of unified executive power. One of the phrases he loved from The Federalist Papers was the idea that you needed to have energy in the executive. You couldn't have a debating team. But he did believe in limits, and he did not believe in defying judges, and he believed in the Constitution. He pushed the law as far as he could, as far as he could get lawyers to push it, but he didn't choose to go beyond that.
INSKEEP: Barton Gellman, the author of "Angler," a book on the late Vice President Dick Cheney. Thanks so much for your insights this morning. Really appreciate it.
GELLMAN: Thanks for having me.
INSKEEP: And for those who are just joining us, Dick Cheney has died at the age of 84. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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