ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
If Kamala Harris officially becomes the Democratic presidential nominee next month, she will be the first woman of color to lead a major party's ticket. Of course, that would not be her first first. Harris' entire career is a list of jobs that nobody who looks quite like her has held before, including California's attorney general, senator, and vice president of the United States. NPR White House correspondent Asma Khalid has covered Harris for years, and she's here to talk about how this long history of breaking barriers informs Harris in the campaign she might run. Hi, Asma.
ASMA KHALID, BYLINE: Hi, Ari.
SHAPIRO: You've interviewed the vice president a number of times. You've covered her for years. Do you have a sense of how she thinks about herself in relation to all those firsts?
KHALID: Well, I will say, Ari, that former staffers and supporters tell me this all the time. They will point out that she has been the first person like her in pretty much every job that she has held. She personally doesn't talk a whole lot about it, but she's aware of it. You know, she has said that her mother told her, Kamala, you may be the first to do many things, but make sure you're not the last. And she said that's how she thinks about this idea of breaking barriers. It's a message that we heard from her when Democrats won the presidential election in November of 2020.
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VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Every little girl watching tonight sees that this is a country of possibilities. And to the children of our country, regardless of your gender, our country has sent you a clear message.
KHALID: This election though, Ari, is different. I mean, there has never been a woman as president. And, you know, there's actually never even been a Black woman who's been a governor of any state in the country. You know, one former Harris staffer told me that Harris doesn't fit neatly into identity boxes, and sometimes it's hard for the broad public to understand her because they haven't seen anybody like her in that position before.
SHAPIRO: You know, politically being a first can be an advantage or a disadvantage. So how do you expect her campaign may use the idea of breaking barriers? Are they likely to focus on it or downplay it?
KHALID: Well, I will say, I don't think she herself nor her campaign needs to explicitly talk about it because there's already been a swell of grassroots support. You know, there were thousands of Black women on a Zoom call the other night. I've spoken to organizers in key states like Georgia, African American women who are quickly rallying behind her. In the Indian American community, there's this photo of Harris being shared online that reads - in Sanskrit, Kamala means lotus; in America, Kamala means POTUS. You know, the country has changed, I will say, quite a bit since the years when Barack Obama, who was, of course, the nation's first Black president, ran for office. And so I do think that the way they talk about this will be different than what we've seen in the past.
SHAPIRO: Well, if there's one word that I have heard her allies use more than any other in the last couple of days, it is prosecutor. She was district attorney in San Francisco, then attorney general for the state of California. As senator, she served on the judiciary committee, where she had these moments that went viral where she was questioning witnesses like Supreme Court nominee, who's now Supreme Court justice, Brett Kavanaugh.
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HARRIS: That's not my question. My question is, have you had a conversation with anyone at that firm about that investigation? It's a really specific question.
BRETT KAVANAUGH: I would like to know the person you're thinking of 'cause what if there's...
HARRIS: I think you're thinking of someone, and you don't want to tell us.
KHALID: That is where her supporters believe she really shines and is at her best. You know, she was only elected to the Senate in the 2016 election cycle, but her prominence grew really quickly because of how she handled some of these Senate confirmation hearings. And then she was named to the ticket shortly after this. I mean, this is something she has heavily leaned into throughout her career. And I will say, you know, throughout her 2020 failed presidential primary, she couldn't always make the affirmative case for herself, but it's when she goes on the attack - and I think this is what we're beginning to see also in her run now against Donald Trump. It's when she goes on the attack that her supporters see her at her best. It's where she really energizes the base of the Democratic Party.
SHAPIRO: During her first run for president, Democratic primary voters were uncomfortable with what they saw as her role as a cop. Does it play differently now in a general election?
KHALID: It does seem to play quite differently, again, because I think she is going on the attack against Trump. She is going after the Republican nominee and trying to contrast her record as a prosecutor with Trump as a felon. It is a message that she had increasingly been bringing out on the campaign trail. And just yesterday at her campaign headquarters in Delaware, she made this pitch again.
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HARRIS: I took on perpetrators of all kinds...
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KHALID: And she's really trying to contrast her record as a prosecutor with Trump as a felon.
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HARRIS: ...Predators who abused women, fraudsters who ripped off consumers, cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain. So hear me when I say, I know Donald Trump's type.
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KHALID: She's trying to make this election a contrast - a contrast, both in terms of her being a prosecutor, him being a convicted felon, but also a contrast in terms of two very different visions for the future. She talks about a vision that is focused on the future and a vision that is focused on the past. And, you know, who she is and what she represents, I think, allows her to more directly speak to those contrasting visions.
SHAPIRO: Well, in her time as vice president, what kinds of changes have you seen that might tell us about the kind of presidential candidate she's going to be?
KHALID: She has become more comfortable on the job as she's gained experience. But I also think a lot of people look to her 2020 presidential campaign and try to glean lessons from that. I think the past is only useful to a point. This is a different campaign that she is running. It is a different moment in American history.
SHAPIRO: That's NPR White House correspondent Asma Khalid. Thank you.
KHALID: Good to talk to you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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