Imagine waking up one morning, opening that day's copy of The New York Times, and seeing yourself described as TV's “king of creepy.” My guest tonight got that distinction just last year. Two time Emmy award winning actor Michael Emerson is a University of Alabama graduate, and he once worked at the Alabama Shakespeare Festival. We met his wife, Carrie Preston of the CBS TV series Elsbeth, just last month. Now, just in case you thought that creepy comment in the New York Times was a one off the Washington Post later called Emerson “TV's most beloved creepy guy” four months later, and he seems to relish in that. Emerson starred as Ben Linus in the TV series Lost and the eccentric billionaire Harold Finch in Person of Interest. However, fans of the cult classic horror film "SAW" may remember him as the creepy hospital orderly Zep Hindle. Michael Emerson and I talk about his days at the University of Alabama and more. Next on APR Notebook.
PAT DUGGINS-- Michael Emerson, thank you so much for joining me on APR notebook.
MICHAEL EMERSON-- My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Pat.
PAT-- As you know, there's part of the website at the Alabama Shakespeare Festival where veteran actors such as yourself get to perform their favorite Shakespearean monologue. And for yours, you chose 12th Night act two, scene five, by Malvolio, and it starts off with tis but fortune. All is fortune. Why did that one appeal to you.
EMERSON-- It's the first Shakespearean role I ever played. I did, I did it when I was at Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa. This would be 1975 so let's call it 50 years. And I guess it's where I it was the right role for me, it kind of put the hook in me, because I saw the humorous possibility of that language.
PAT-- I've heard that from from Shakespearean actors before that like, when you when you read it, it's so threatening, it's so imposing. But when you really get into it, it's, very, it's very, I think they say it's very human. It's just easy to get into.
EMERSON-- Oh, yeah. Well, and that's Shakespeare's great gift, among many others, is writing for interesting humans, and always tenderly and always with humor. He's, you know, he's the best.
PAT-- Now, anybody who listens to this program, to themselves that opening question that I asked you about the video, they're thinking, Well, wait a minute. Didn't I hear that last month? Well, okay, they did. I asked the very same thing of your wife, fellow Emmy winner and fellow Alabama Shakespeare actor Carrie Preston. Her choice, as you know, was Midsummer Night's Dream. Now, as I understand, the two of you met during a 1994 production of Hamlet. She was Ophelia. You were Guildenstern. Now, meeting your future wife is pretty, pretty momentous. But I was wondering, what else do you remember from that particular, that particular show?
EMERSON-- I remember that her big brother, John Preston, who was an actor in the standing equity company there when he told us that his little sister was going to come down and be in the show. And we all thought, oh boy, because we like John. He's so much fun. I thought, well, I'm going to have to try to be very nice to this girl and show her some hospitality. And then after meeting her, I became so fascinated with her that I couldn't stop being nice to her. I couldn't stop paying attention to her, trying to hanging around her, you know, trying to make myself useful.
PAT-- Well, I heard from Miss Preston that it was like it was a crush on her part. I'm not, you know, I don't want to be, you know, intrusive or anything like that. But how long before it really, really clicked between you two?
EMERSON-- I mean, it clicked for me at that first table read on the Tuesday after Thanksgiving, nine in the morning, and there was this girl on the other side of a huge circular table, and I was quite taken with her voice, which was, it was pitched in a register that was really interesting and and delicate and funny all at the same time. And I thought, Oh, I could listen to her talk for a good long while, and that was sort of the big and she had seen me before. Then she had come with her mother to one of our shows. Just on the weekend prior, and she had seen a Christmas carol which her brother was in, and in which I because I was in the conservatory working on my masters. I played seven different roles in that play, and I did my best to make each one different from the other. I went so far as to blacken my teeth for some and use funny wigs and and funny dialect changes and stuff. And I, I think she liked the look of that, and she thought, Who is this guy?
PAT-- You'd mentioned earning your MFA from the University of Alabama at the festival? And the results speak for themselves. I mean, like, your your resume just doesn't quit. You know, theater, TV, motion pictures, two Emmys, you're a household name, but I was kind of curious, you know, when people and I'm a non actor, so I'm acting in complete speaking in complete ignorance here, but when people talk about, I'm going to study theater, things like, you know, NYU Tisch School comes up, Julliard comes up, Carnegie Mellon comes up, What? What? Appealed to you in terms of, like studying in Alabama?
EMERSON-- Well, because nothing about my career has been direct or had any likelihood of success. You know, I started late. I was a magazine illustrator for years. I moved to Northeast Florida, got divorced, had my bridges burnt, and I thought, well, it's time for me to start over. I'm in my middle 30s now. I might as well do the thing that I always wanted to do. So I worked odd jobs and started doing community theater, and so those, those premium or Premier training programs were not within my reach. Financially or socially or, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't anyone to even recommend me to a place like that. But so I rattled around in the southeast for a good many years, and then finally, friends prevailed upon me and said, you know, you've done everything you can here. You got to get out in the world more. And my friend Ian was a friend of a guy named John Preston, and he said, You should go up to Alabama. My pal John is up there. He got his master's there. He's in the equity company. All he does is Shakespeare. He loves it, and it's, you know, he has a life in the theater. He works with great directors and great actors. And I thought, well, all right, let me take a look at that, and that's how I ended up there.
PAT-- Well, the results speak for themselves, but I'm wondering, anywhere in your career, did anybody ever say Alabama, Shakespeare? What's up with that?
EMERSON-- People always think you know that you're joking, because it just, it seems, it seems just unlikely to and, but I think people in the industry certainly have heard of the Shakespeare festival there. It's, you know, it was one of the, one of the five in the day, you know, Utah and Oregon and Alabama. And there was one in Connecticut, well, and, and there's much, there's a bunch of smaller ones too. But, yeah, it was a, I'd say, in the days when I first went there, it was quite a draw. We used to see buses from all over the southeast in the parking lot during the full run of our repertory. There would be people coming from, you know, New Orleans and Chattanooga and Atlanta and Florida. You know, it was a, it was a real draw, and I think the quality of the productions was pretty high.
PAT-- Many years ago, I had the chance to talk with actor Roger Moore. Now, for the younger listener in our audience here, he played James Bond in the 1970s and 80s. And, I asked him at that time, if he had the chance to play a Bond villain, would he do it? And only as Roger Moore could respond to it, and I'm going to do a terrible invitation here. He said, ‘well, of course, Bond villains don't work as hard, and they get the best lines.’ And your career, theater, television, motion pictures, and it seems as though you've, you've played more than your share of bad guys. I mean, are they more fun?
EMERSON-- They are indeed more fun. Who wants to be the good guy? I mean, the most delicious roles are either sinister or mysterious or hilarious, and if you can be all three at once, then you know that's a gold mine. And it's so much fun to play because it has it has more layers. Villains have things to hide. Villains have plans that they don't share with the people around them. You know, there's a lot of interior to a villain, and I feed on that kind of thing. So I have, I have always enjoyed those roles, and I learned to enjoy villainy by playing Shakespeare, of course, because in Jacksonville, Florida, the first role I played was Iago and Othello. And there you have it. There's your there's your education in how a bad person engages the audience, charms them, makes them laugh and makes them complicit in his villainy, and it don't get no better than that.
PAT-- I've read interviews you've done where it's like, it's the it's the nuance in the bad guys that kind of appeals to you. Let me give you a couple of examples here. In addition to, you know, stage and movies and television, you've also done voice acting. And now in the APR newsroom, we've had current and former staffers who love to talk DC and Marvel comic movies and the fact that you were the voice actor behind the Joker in a Batman animated feature and then Brainiac in a Superman animated feature, I assure you there's going to be “geek out” action big time in the newsroom, when I tell everybody, but I noticed with both of those characters, it's not the scenery chewing bad guy, but it is that, that nuance that you referred to in previous interviews.
EMERSON-- Yeah, you don't want to go, Well, you'll have a director on that work. It's difficult work. You need a good director. And then they'll, they'll tell you kind of what scale is right? If you're smart, you'll also pay attention to other actors who have played similar roles and see what they've done. I, as I get older, I'm do I continue to strive to do less, to make it more detailed and less Titanic or heroic or what have you you know, make that he to to humanize them and and let, let the editors and post production sound designers make the thing have scale. But I don't feel responsible for scale. I mean, the we had a tough director for those Batman things, and that's scary work, because there's been a half a dozen famous guys that have played that part before. You either on the big screen or in an animated setting. So you know you're going to get compared. And it so it's a little terrifying. And then you have somebody, you're in a booth in New York, and the director's in a booth in LA and you're in there like cackling or crying out or screaming with pain or Glee or what have you, and she's pushing you, pushing you to do, let's go. Let's go again. Only go further. Go further. Bring it up from the toes. You know that that kind of thing, and it'll, it'll wear you out. It will wear out your voice too. But she eventually gets what she wants, and it's, it ends up sounding great on the finished product.
PAT-- You mentioned characters with mystery about them, and I would be remiss if I didn't say that among all the other television series that you did as you portrayed characters and Mrs. Duggins, and I really, really like “Person of Interest,” Harold Finch, mystery written all over him. So I mean, but he never struck me as a villain, just this, just this kind of, this mysterious what appealed to you when it came to that's a person I'd like to portray.
EMERSON-- I thought, I thought he was a heroic figure, but an unlike, an unlikely one, crippled billionaire with on a suicide mission, against overwhelming odds, to have the to feel the calling that he felt, to have his sense of right and humor and all of that. I just thought it was it really appealed to me that script was laying on JJ Abrams desk one time, and we were having a conversation about what to do next. And I said, Look, you've got a pile of scripts there. There must be something in there that I could play. And he says, All right, take a look at this one. See what you think it shoots in New York. Well, then I wanted to read it because I was, you know, I wanted to be home to work, but I was taken with the kind of kamikazi mission, of the whole thing, and the noir feeling of it. So much of it happens at night in dark spaces, so much surveillance, so much danger. And it was great that way.
PAT-- Everybody either saw it first run or now it's now, it's in it's in reruns on streaming. But for the one person who hasn't seen it, Harold Finch, as you mentioned, billionaire computer genius, came up with a device that can predict crimes before they can happen. And then Finch teams up with actor Jim Caviezel, and they go off and they fight crime. The one thing that kind of struck me was interesting was that it gave you the opportunity to actually attend the San Diego Comic Con during the run of a person of interest. What was that like?
EMERSON-- Well, it was a madhouse, but I had been there during my days on lost, and it'll never be madder than it was when lost came to town at San Diego Comic Con, when we. Were flying high on that series because that was catnip for the crowd at Comic Con. We we could not get through the throng of people there that we had so many bodyguards and handlers and stuff just to try to cross the floor to get to a place where we could do interviews, you know, or signed posters and things it was, it was really something.
PAT-- And now “Lost” is finding new life on streaming, on Netflix, I believe it is. And in interviews, you mentioned, like, it's really kind of interesting seeing a whole new generation discovered lost and its initial run. So what was that like?
EMERSON-- It's true. It's so cool. I have teenagers come up to me on the streets of Manhattan and and go, you know, Benjamin Linus, I hated you, but I love you, you know. And their parents watched it when it was broadcast. And then now kids are watching or the parents are watching it again with them, I talked to grown up people who have watched the entire series three or four times. I haven't looked at it in 15 years, but I guess I need to.
PAT-- Is it different? Because, like, you know, back in the day would be like, there'd be first run, and then reruns, and then maybe syndication, and now with streaming, somebody could sit literally with a bag of popcorn over the weekend and binge watch a whole season. As an actor. Is it different, or is just kind of like, you know, just another medium?
EMERSON-- Well, it was, you know, loss took advantage of a certain time and space in the television universe. It was still weekly. You still had to wait seven days to see what happened. And I think there was something good in that we had social media, but we didn't have streaming yet, so it was much talked about. You know, the problems and mysteries of the show were considered at length, both online and at the water cooler, and it got people's appetites whetted for next week's episode, which they would always tune into.
PAT-- Speaking of streaming, oh, first of all, I'm going to be talking to you very shortly about your turn as the corrupt judge Milton Crawford on CBS “Elsbeth.”, starring, starring your wife, Carrie Preston. But speaking of streaming, your latest series, “Evil” is making the rounds now. And speaking of a generational difference in audience members, I've never seen anybody be able to take Abbott and Costello's “Who's on First, What's on second, I don't know, is on third,” and make it menacing. Do you get younger fans saying Abbott and Costello, who?
EMERSON-- I was given lots of mid or early 20th century references, because Leland is, he's a kind of a connoisseur. It's part of his charm. You know, for a really bad guy that works with demons all the time, he's he's pretty fast on his feet, and he's funny, and he's a little bit antic and absurd. So I got many odd songs and dances and little performance, ticky little performance things that I had to do. And I think sometimes it was a game between the producers and me. It's like, what can we toss Emerson and see what he'll do with it, you know? And it was, some of it was some of it was very challenging.
PAT-- Okay, let's get on to judge Milton Crawford and Elsbeth. Okay, now again, Ms. Preston plays the lead character, a consultant for the police who crosses swords with your character. And it's almost like, I've heard comparisons are like Sherlock Holmes with Professor Moriarty. What was Crawford like to play?
EMERSON-- Was fun. It's a little bit scary because, you know, it's, that's, that's my wife's world over there. She's the, she's the “queen bee” of this massive operation. And I don't want to come in and mess things up. Plus, I'm not a regular on that series. When, you're a guest actor, you pay attention to guest actor protocols, and that is, keep your head down. Know your lines don't be over familiar. You know you're there to do a job of work. You know it's it's not, it's not happy hour. You got work to do. And I had, I had as much as I could handle playing that part, because it was, you know, it was long days and and when you come in, I mean, I've been on long running series where at a certain point I didn't have to think anymore about how to play the character. I just, you know, I had it, I it. I put it on with my costume every day I worked, but with this character, and there was no discussion, there was no table read or anything like that, or no discussion with a director, or anything about how to play the character, or what he sounds like, or what the tone of this is. What's the tone of this set of episodes, you know? So I was just.
Make You know I was winging it. I was making it up as I went along. Fortunately, I had found what I thought was a voice for the character, and that's a good that's a good place to start. At least it is for me. I guess for some people, winging it might be fun. For others, it might be aggravating. What it wind up being like for you, I end up I like to be a little more prepared. I like, I like to know what my business is, and, you know, I, I like to be the authority on my character. But I didn't feel like I was the authority until we were halfway through that first episode. So it took me two or three days to kind of settle down and think, Oh, I got this. I got this.
PAT-- Speaking of guest appearances, I mean, both of you, you've won two Emmys, but both of you have won in the category of “guest performer.” And I'm kind of curious, I mean, any thoughts on because you commented earlier about what a guest performer does, but you did it to the point and Ms. Preston did to the point where you walked home with Emmy gold.
EMERSON-- Yeah, I mean, but those are, apparently, those are the roles to get, if you can get them, get get something that's a difficult character that no one else can figure out exactly how to play it and then get it and run with it. There's so many parallels between she and I. In that regard, we were both the same age when we got that first Emmy we it's like we're leading, you know, some kind of tag team. Parallel career between the two of us is great.
PAT-- I hear at the Emmys, they don't feed you. Is that true?
EMERSON-- Damn, right? They don't. And it's, it's an issue, you know, because it's, it's a long show, and you know, you get, you kind of run out of steam, and if you're not allowed a certain amount of refreshment, whether it's liquid or food. God help you if you're one of the last categories called because by then, you're kind of brain dead, and the nerves you've been dealing with for four hours have hollowed out your brain. And God help you if they call your name, because now you got to try to get up on that stage without falling and say something intelligent in front of, you know, 50 million people running out of actually, they have a clock running on you when you make your speeches.
PAT-- So, I mean, did you get everything out? Do you recall?
EMERSON-- Yeah, yeah, I would always, I think it behooves, I mean, we're an industry of performers. So I think you should be a little bit ready, even if you're a long shot, have something in mind and make sure it fits in the timeframe.
PAT-- You know, as we start to wrap up, Mr. Emerson, I was wondering when you go to the it's, you know, movie movie fans such as myself, if I want some background information, I go to the international Movie Database, and so when I call up Michael Emerson, the very first references they make to you is the 2004 horror classic “Saw.” And I was, I was wondering, because, like, you know, you've done Shakespeare, you've won two Emmys, and I don't want to talk so much about the movie itself, because it's got, it's, it's got its proponents and opponents, but I'm wondering that, you know, can you talk about putting your your head around being an accomplished actor, but you're in something like that, a slasher movie that has like this public pop culture “kaboom” to it? What do you think?
EMERSON--Well, I'm a follower of good scripts, and when I read the script of that movie, saw by two unknown Australian kids, I thought it had the best ending possibly that I had ever read for a thriller, a thing that would make the audience stand up and scream In the theaters. And I thought, well, now here's something. And also they had gone to the trouble. They had pooled every penny they had between the two of them and made a teaser like a they made a five minute piece of the movie with full effects, full tech, full sound, full lighting, music, everything. And it was really powerful. It was strange and disturbing and powerful. And I thought, well, this, this could really be something, and it turned out to really be something, but I was glad to survive that shoot that's the roughest shoot I've ever been around. And you think differently about combat and gunfire after, after you've worked on a show like that.
PAT-- Well, and anybody who doesn't, who hasn't seen the movie, and they don't want to have the ending spoiled. Turn down your radio for just a second, because it's kind of like getting getting back to nuanced. No, turn down the radio if you don't want to hear this. Okay, talking about nuanced villains. It turns it starts off at your character, Zep Hindle, looks like the bad guy, but turns out that he's not. And I just wonder if that kind of figures into that, that that that great writing you were talking about.
EMERSON-- Yeah, I thought so too. It was a great it was a great tease. Look, it's, it's, it's a really well structured horror movie, or I guess you'd call it horror, psychological horror. And in those days, you know, I was looking for work, and this seemed, you know, it seemed like they had studio backing, and there were some names attached. And as I say, the script was so good, I thought, What the heck a chance to be in LA? Because I think Carrie was working in LA at that time. And so I dove into it. And luckily, I live to tell the tale.
PAT-- So as we, as we, as we. Wrap up here. We started with the Alabama Shakespeare Festival. Let's go ahead and wrap up with it. I believe 2024 you and Miss Preston were like the the guests of honor at the at the Festival Gala. And I'm kind of wondering, you know when you're when you're seeing the next generation of Shakespeare actors, you know, at the festival now? And any thoughts is The Bard's work in good hands. What do you think it is in good hands? It? It's it?
EMERSON – It warms your heart to see young people taking care of business, doing great things with these old plays. And you think the report of the death of the theater is is premature, because it just keeps going and this generation will do great things with it.
PAT-- Michael Emerson, thank you so much for talking to me.
EMERSON-- Thanks. It was fun!
PAT-- You can listen again to every episode of APR notebook by going to apr.org or wherever you get your podcasts. APR notebook is a production of Alabama Public Radio. So if you like it, go to apr.org and become a supporting member that makes our award winning journalism possible. The student interns in the APR newsroom are Samantha Triana, Chris ALF Lourdes, Duran, Matt Moran, Emily Ahern, Leo, swagger, JD kaziah, Audrey, Zimmerman, Brooke Goodrich and Lila. Jane bonds, I'm Pat Duggins, we'll see you next time on APR notebook.
