JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Every breakthrough, every innovation, every bold idea shaping our future begins with curiosity and the people willing to follow it.
LISA JONES:
From research labs to manufacturing, from discarded materials to the next generation of design, this is Bright Path, where science meets creativity, and ideas come to life.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Most of us have experienced it. A song suddenly brings tears to our eyes, or a line of poetry leaves us speechless. Perhaps a scene in a movie stays with us for years. You know, sometimes we understand the reaction, sometimes we don't. And two people can hear the same song, watch the same movie, read the same poem, and respond completely different. So, what happens in the human brain that allows music, or poetry, film, or art to overwhelm us with emotion?
LISA JONES:
That question began for me with something simple. I heard a song once and thought it was beautiful. Later, I heard the very same song again. And, you know, nothing about the recording had changed. But this time, it brought me to tears. Something had changed in me, and I wanted to understand why.
Today, we're exploring that question from two perspectives. Dr. Andrea Cevasco-Trotter is Director and Professor of Music Therapy at the University of Alabama. Her research focuses on neurologic music therapy, premature infants, and the aging population.
Dr. Cevasco-Trotter, welcome to the BrightPath studio.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Thank you. So glad to be here.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Our other guest is Matt Jones, an accomplished singer-songwriter and recording artist. But to us, he's our friend and writer of "This Place," the original song he has generously allowed Bright Path to use as its theme.
Matt, we welcome you to Bright Path.
MATT JONES:
Thank you. Wonderful to be here.
LISA JONES:
Matt, I first heard "This Place" before Bright Path even existed. I heard it on the noon show. Actually, I thought it was a beautiful song because it is.
Now, later, you told Johnny—we were talking about looking for music. We told you about Bright Path, right? You said, with so much confidence, "I've got the perfect song for this show." You had no doubt, and you were correct. You sent it to us.
It was the same recording, same melody, same lyrics, but this time, I cried.
And Andrea, I would like to begin with you with the central question: What is actually happening in the brain when a song suddenly overwhelms us with emotion?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
So, you have to look at the different components of music. You've got the melody, you've got the chords, you've got the instrumentation—all the instruments that are part of the song—and you've got the song lyrics.
Your brain is listening to music, and it is being processed in multiple parts of the brain. We think left hemisphere versus the right hemisphere and how we process things, but now we know that multiple parts of your brain are being activated and simultaneously communicating back and forth at a very fast pace.
And so, with music and with this emotional response, your brain is predicting what is going to happen next. As the music is playing and it's swelling and creating this emotional moment, your brain is firing a bunch of dopamine out. And as the music hits that big point, that tipping point in the song, more dopamine is emitted, and that is connecting that emotional response.
For you, you said the first time you heard it that it was a lovely song, but that second time you mentioned it brought you to tears because you have this background, this history of, "Hey, this is what I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to create this show that is going to be broadcast and reach many people, explaining the importance of research in the community."
And this music, the lyrics, that moment and everything came together just resulted in that emotional response.
LISA JONES:
Yes, and I just wanted to follow up really quickly with specifically the lyrics. "This place is my sweet dream." That's the one that hits me like a ton of bricks. It's where it all comes together for me because that's the truth. This place here, where we are right now, it is my dream.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
And, of course, as you mentioned, that emotion, right? Those lyrics—they're just pulling emotion from you. Obviously, you have an emotional connection to this, and that is what is resulting in that emotional response this time versus that first time hearing it.
That there's special meaning in your heart. That this dream of yours is coming true, and those lyrics are producing that emotional response every time that you're here. Very meaningful.
LISA JONES:
You hit the nail right on the head.
MATT JONES:
And one of the aspects that we don't really think about, but it's proven time and time again, is music has the ability to open people's hearts.
Just music. And it can be the most hardened criminal in the world, or someone in this room. Music—it just will soften the hardest individual.
So you take someone that's a little jaded and cynical and been through a rough experience or some sort of tragedy, and that music starts to happen, and it registers in their soul, and they just start to open their heart to whatever this message is that's coming in.
LISA JONES:
Yeah.
MATT JONES:
And my hope has always been, as a songwriter, to have music that would draw people closer to God, no matter what the message is.
There are things, there are films out there, there are songs out there that can either draw you closer to God and closer to wanting to be the best version of yourself, and there are songs that make you want to go to Panama City on spring break.
LISA JONES:
That's a great point.
MATT JONES:
And it's always been my hope that it would be those songs that make you want to be the best version of yourself, or to find those things that make you think about the good things.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Yeah, let's go into a little bit more depth because both you and Andrea are hitting on an important point, I think. And the question kind of is: Let's say two people can hear the same song, see the same painting, right? But they have totally different emotional responses.
Andrea, you kind of hit around that a little bit, but let's go into more depth. Why does that happen? What triggers my emotion versus Lisa's emotion?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Right. So you have your past experience with music, and then you have your own historical, autobiographical background that is contributing to those emotional responses to music.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
We heard one of the researchers on our show talk about how the entire body has memory, so I think that's what I'm hearing. You're saying the whole body, whether it's mental, emotional, physical, we have a memory built in. And great point. And that subconscious is always active. It doesn't have to be conscious. It's so subconscious. It's back in your previous life history experience, and that triggers whether or not I laugh or whether I cry.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Yes, so you've got that emotional-cognitive component of the brain that is interacting with all the other parts of the brain. So you've got your sensory aspect that's going on, and all of it's interacting to create that experience, that emotional response.
And so, yes, our differences in our history. I have a different background than Lisa, and then Matt. Matt and I probably have some shared things because we're both musicians, but we each have our own development across time with music and our preferences that we have formed, and then just events in our life that have taken place at this point in time, and then what we're currently experiencing, and what our thoughts and our emotions are at that moment to play a part in this.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
I'm gonna go down a different path for just a second. We're talking about music, but the other senses are at work too. Correct? Because a piece of art—I'm thinking of Lisa's. I remember her seeing a piece of art that really moved her, and now she wants that piece of art.
But our senses all are working simultaneously, I assume?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Yes, definitely. And you see it in all types of art form, whether it's music, visual art, theater, movies. Movies usually evoke a great amount of emotional response in us as we're watching it, and depending upon our life experience, I might be crying, and someone else might be just saying, "Oh, this is really a moving moment," but it's not evoking that same emotion.
LISA JONES:
Right. And so, I just want to make a comment too about this particular song, "This Place," by, again, singer-songwriter Matt Jones.
So, for me, when I heard it the first time, again, beautiful song. It's a great song. But once he offered it to us for our use, it became our song. And there was something about that being our song and the way it articulated my feelings about being here, which, of course, are rather strong, which I think I kind of demonstrated just a few minutes ago. And it's very meaningful for me to be here doing what we're doing.
What would you say about that component? And it doesn't have to be a song for a show. Your song with your sweetheart, that kind of a thing. What would you say about that? How does that elevate a song in someone's life?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Well, I think it's so fascinating that you're mentioning it's the "our song" theory is what is happening here with you, that this has become yours and Johnny's song, and you're very excited about it and having that emotional response.
But people have been putting music paired with life events. So, this is the song that we danced to at our wedding. This was the song that was playing when you asked me to marry you. This was the song that was played with my sister when we were doing X, Y, and Z.
And this moment is forever embedded within me. And that you typically have that emotional response to that song across time, and you have the memories that are paired with the song, which I think is really important.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Makes sense.
MATT JONES:
And to jump in real quick on the idea, as a songwriter, one of the things that you really want to do and to try to do well is to come up with something that every single person has thought, but no one has ever said.
And it can be a simple emotion or a simple feeling, but to think of something that you can have be the subject of the song, or even just a line, but have it be something that everyone has thought, but no one has verbalized before.
And if you can make the whole song about that, it's great. Or even if it's just one particular line that hits people.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Let me follow up, Matt, with you because, as the singer, as a songwriter, primarily on this question, you talked earlier about you wanted to praise God—
MATT JONES:
To bring people closer.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Bring people closer to God, and make people hopefully become better than they are. Where does your inspiration come from? I mean, you're kind of hitting around it a little bit, but what comes first? Lyrics, the music? What inspires you, and can you just sit down and do that, or does it take time to kind of put it together? I know it's got to be a combination.
MATT JONES:
It is a combination, but for me, I'm always noodling with the guitar and different tunings and different voicings with the guitar, and to try to find a little ditty that they would say like "Jack and Diane" a little bit, but it's what I call them.
But on my phone, I've got voice memos, and I've got hundreds and hundreds of these little ditties that just have a certain feel.
So what I always go for first, if I'm going to go, "Okay, this is a particular little snippet of something that I came up with. This has got legs. It's got something more than just a nice guitar lick. It's got a feel."
And that feel—
LISA JONES: That question was on my list. I'm so glad you brought that up.
MATT JONES: Yeah, it's that it's got to have a feel, and if it's moving me, I would think that it would move everybody else possibly as well.
If it's registering with me that it's gotten legs and it's something solid that's got a great feel, and one of the songwriting practices that I've heard people try before is to put on Spotify and put it on a playlist that they might not normally listen to, of artists that they wouldn't hear, and go through that Spotify list and find something that is exciting that instantly moves you—a song that you've never heard before.
You turn it off quickly, and grab your instrument and try to duplicate that feeling—not the chord progression, not the key, not anything else, but try to duplicate the feel.
And if you're able to do that, it's almost like kind of preparing the road for what you're going to be writing.
LISA JONES:
I love how you articulated that. I've often said I do believe that artists see the world in a different way from the non-artists, like me, I would say. And I'm trying to process what you're saying about the feel, and then duplicating the feel, not the actual chord progression or music progression or anything like that, but the feel.
Can you further explain the feel, or is that pretty much—
MATT JONES:
There are some songs that you hear the first time you hear them, the very first time you're hooked. And those songs, it's like crack. It's just sugar and beautiful and candy and wonderful, and it grabs you instantly.
LISA JONES:
How do you duplicate it, though?
MATT JONES:
You take that emotion and you just transfer it into the guitar. You're holding that emotion and you're trying to duplicate that same feeling that it gave me, whether it's energetic or maybe it's melodic.
LISA JONES:
Challenging, obviously.
MATT JONES:
And I tend to stay more in the depressed, melodic kind of a world because that makes me happy.
LISA JONES:
Oh, okay. Okay...
MATT JONES:
But that's where the, you know, for me, that's where the emotion is—the melodic...
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Okay, let's take it to Andrea.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
So you're right on it, Johnny. There's a nice study that was done about seven or eight years ago with a group of researchers looking at what it is about a song that makes a person want to listen to it and that they enjoy it, and they said it's the emotions and the mood that is evoked when they listen to it. That was number one.
Number two was the vocalist and the vocals, and number three were the lyrics. So lyrics were in the top five out of like 12, 13 different components that make up music.
And they just asked people first off what it was, and took that data, and then did kind of a deeper dive into it. And then later on, as they compiled further on, it was the musicianship and the singing skills that ranked up higher on it.
But the mood and the emotions that are evoked, number one. So yes, that's what research is. It aligns exactly with what Matt's saying.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
It's just really interesting, you know. I hear this one song, and it used to play on the jukebox in the fraternity house all the time. Every time I hear that music, I'm transported by—
MATT JONES:
Oh, 100%...
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
To a melody— to the fraternity house.
MATT JONES:
A melody that's attached to our memory, and it can take you back to sometimes even the smells.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
I want to go one step further, Andrea, with you, and we're talking music. It is the universal language, isn't it? But the same thing happens with art, with poetry, with a book. Maybe there's a passage in a book. I think about Lisa. There's a particular book that right now I could tell her, "Go to chapter three," and she'll get emotional. She'll know what I'm talking about.
LISA JONES:
Yeah, that's true.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
So to your point, and I think that's what we're wanting our audience to understand: life's experiences do get embedded in us, and that's what draws us out.
So that's the reason you use music therapy.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Yes. We use patient-preferred music first and foremost because that's going to be the most effective. It's what people are drawn to that we can use for a therapeutic change.
So something that's not music-related, whether it's sensory, motor, cognitive, social, emotional, communication, or even spiritual needs of an individual.
And, of course, we know that music, typically from your young adult years, is what sticks with us across our lifespan. And so I went back and looked at the original research study done in the 1970s by Dr. Alicia Clair, and it was songs from your 20s to 30 years of age is what sticks with you.
My colleague and I—she's at Florida State—Dr. Kim Van Welden, and I did a series of studies where we looked at preferred music of older adults, and we actually found that even songs that went back further were preferred more than songs from their young adult years.
And so, I think what was happening with that research study and with that population of older adults, people would gather around the piano and sing as a family, and so maybe their parents' preferred music was what they were hearing. And that's what they would actually prefer—songs from the early 1900s, '10s, and '20s, even though they were born in 1925 or 1930.
And I find that's even true for myself today. As a youngster, I did not like listening to my mom's John Denver on 12-hour road trips from South Carolina to Indiana to visit relatives.
MATT JONES:
Such a rebel.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Oh my goodness, I just did not like it. And my mom—we, it was like cassette tape after cassette tape, right?
But as a person, an older adult myself, I love John Denver, and it brings back these warm feelings of us all piled into the car with our snacks and our items, and just hoping to get there, and we're passing through the cornfields in Indiana, and I have these positive memories that are embedded whenever I hear a John Denver song.
LISA JONES:
I love that, Andrea. I don't have sort of a parallel genre or group. ABBA for me would be it because that was part of my parents' music, and it would play in the living room. And when "Dancing Queen" came on that record player, it was on for me.
I had to run right to the living room because, in my mind, at least, I was the Dancing Queen. And I love, I love it. I love it so much.
Obviously, ABBA is a classic anyway, right?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
It is, definitely. And then, of course, siblings and your peers all have an influence on your music preferences, as Matt has been talking about.
Sometimes you hear that song the first time, and it's an instant love. But other times, you might have to listen to it two, three, four times before you actually can make a true decision of whether you like it or dislike it.
Just like it is the same with trying Brussels sprouts, you know, or whatever you're trying to get your children to eat. It's like you have to try this more than once.
LISA JONES:
Exactly. That's a great point. And I'm glad that you said that because I remember reading that when my daughter was a child, you have to introduce certain foods up to eight or nine times before they'll accept it, oftentimes.
But if you think about it, music, the different genres—we can all learn to like the different ones if we want to, and be a little more open-minded.
And Matt, you mentioned listening to a different genre of music to get inspired, and you get that feeling. And I thought that that was a very interesting approach. Why is that? Why go to the different genre?
MATT JONES:
When I say different genre, I really meant a different artist than I would normally probably listen to that would be in my reel of music that I would normally go to.
Because I would stick with the morbid, depressed, whack-white-boy lovers' lament kind of songwriters, and I don't know why you say—
But I do branch out of that to something that would be a little different... when I say different, it probably isn't that different.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Yeah. Andrea, this is part of our conversation because I find it intriguing because you work at both ends of the spectrum using music. You use music in infants. You also use music therapy at the senior level.
I guess it's a couple of questions that come out of that. Number one, are there some commonalities between the infant and the senior adult? Number one. Number two, what are the differences? I mean, you're at the beginning and end of life. How does music affect that newborn? Does it affect it the same way as that elderly senior adult?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Yes, quite a difference, and I love serving both the premature infant in the neonatal intensive care unit who is just struggling to stay alive, and I love working with older adults, especially those with dementia and towards the latter stages of life.
And regarding similarities with premature infants, we're going to especially depend upon how premature they are. And sometimes we're seeing infants that are 26 weeks gestational age at birth, and a full-term baby is 40 weeks, or 37 weeks and upwards.
And when you're working with somebody that small, we are just using singing alone—just a cappella singing, very soothing lullaby-style phrasing that's short and repetitive for the infant because they're just working hard to process this new information.
Over time, we might add guitar as they get closer to 30 weeks, or they're medically stable and they're able to handle that kind of sensory input.
But part of what we're doing with this population is working on soothing the infant so that their heart rate stays within normal range. We're working on increasing oxygen intake so that they're relying less on any respiratory support, and of course language development.
And if mom and dad are there, we involve mom and dad in the singing process so that there's mom's voice or dad's voice or any caregiver, so that bonding can happen - attachment and bonding occurs.
With the older adults with dementia, I'm going to be using their preferred music, so not lullabies or anything of that nature. Sometimes I'm using very stimulative music, things that can keep them engaged and active and not falling asleep.
But it depends upon the therapeutic goal and objective that you're working towards. If you're working with a hospitalized patient who's been in a lot of pain and they have not had good sleep, I might be using music to put them asleep.
And so then it might be more similar to those premature infants with singing and slower tempo, and it's steady and gradually slowing it down, slowing it down, and fading it out, so that individual can have a great amount of sleep for the first time in several days since they've been hospitalized.
With older adults with dementia, and especially more towards the end of life, and with hospice care, you might actually find better results with just a cappella singing.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Okay. And so there are similarities.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
So there are some similarities, but there are a lot of differences to it as far as the therapeutic goals. But...
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Yeah, because the senior adult is going to have a lot more memory that will respond to certain music, as we've discussed.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Yeah, and using that to tap into positive memories and reminiscing, and reminiscing with loved ones.
So now we have something that is happening between the caregiver and the individual, and they're having a shared moment, and that might not have happened in quite some time, especially for caregivers who are dealing with everything day in and day out, trying to hold the family together, pay the bills, keep the house up, and take care of their loved one.
And now we've created this wonderful moment using music. And as music therapists, we also want them to be able to find ways to use music when we're not there.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Matt, back to you. And before we close, because we're going to end our show in just a few minutes, just one final question for you: What's the one idea that you hope our listeners take with them long after this conversation is over?
MATT JONES:
That's a Miss America question. Nobody remembers the answer to Miss America questions.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Peace and goodwill is not an answer.
MATT JONES:
I would just encourage, especially parents of young children, to introduce them to music, musical instruments, to writing.
Because I look back on my life, I can't imagine how stressed and how miserable my life would have been had I not had that outlet for music and to be able to kind of channel that artistic hustle.
Everybody has a job. Everyone works, and select few people are able to make the arts their primary living, but it is so life-enriching to have that to fall back on.
And sometimes it's benefited me greatly as a side hustle, right? Financial reasons—not too crazy greatly, but benefited me for sure. 100%.
But I would just encourage parents: when the child asks for a guitar, say yes. Drums, maybe not.
LISA JONES:
Okay.
MATT JONES:
But encourage them in any way if they show an interest in it. For myself, there was no holding back. As soon as I picked up my guitar when I was 12, it was the realization of, "This is who I am. It's what I'm going to be," and it was my identity, and I just latched onto it.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Yeah, that makes sense. Wow.
LISA JONES:
Okay, so with that, Andrea, we'll give you the final word before we close. What's the one idea you hope people remember long after this conversation is over?
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
I think what Matt had to say was really important and very relevant, and I can't add too much more to that.
But yes, just involving music in your life, however you best see fit, and that music plays a role and brings about usually positive memories.
For those with young babies, start singing to your baby. And it doesn't matter if you can sing perfectly or sound like American Idol. What your infant, your toddlers, and your little ones remember is that you are singing and you're communicating and creating a bond for those across the lifespan.
And at the other end, utilize music however you see fit, and don't feel like you're stuck in a rigid routine of having to use it. It has to be at this time every single day, but just incorporate it. Use it to enhance your overall quality of life.
And if you need to find a music therapist, they might be able to help you and guide you in other ways to use music to bring about joy or work on therapeutic outcomes in your life.
LISA JONES:
And on that note, Dr. Andrea Cevasco-Trotter and Matt Jones, thank you so much for joining us today in the BrightPath studio.
MATT JONES:
Thank you.
DR. CEVASCO-TROTTER:
Thank you.
LISA JONES:
For Johnnie Aycock— I'm Lisa Jones, and this is Bright Path.
JOHNNIE AYCOCK:
Bright Path is made possible in part by our partners at Alabama Public Radio and by the music of Matt Jones, whose song "This Place" sets the tone for our journey. Thank you.
